1 00:00:25,420 --> 00:00:16,080 [Music] 2 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:25,430 ladies and gentlemen good morning it's 3 00:00:32,889 --> 00:00:29,000 my pleasure to say this conference I 4 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:32,899 thank professor garret model for 5 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:36,290 inviting me to stay at this event so we 6 00:00:44,470 --> 00:00:41,230 will approach the matter studying the 7 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:44,480 research strategy we apply it with 8 00:00:50,770 --> 00:00:48,110 metallurgy calorimetry material science 9 00:00:55,090 --> 00:00:50,780 and reproducibility and study of the 10 00:00:57,729 --> 00:00:55,100 interface and then conclusions so for 11 00:01:00,010 --> 00:00:57,739 people that are not confident with the 12 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:00,020 matter let me say that the Fleischmann 13 00:01:04,780 --> 00:01:02,090 and pons effect is the appearance of 14 00:01:07,929 --> 00:01:04,790 excess of energy when a Palladium 15 00:01:11,770 --> 00:01:07,939 cathode is electrolyzed at the in a 16 00:01:15,309 --> 00:01:11,780 water we have done a long work on that 17 00:01:19,289 --> 00:01:15,319 along 25 years including a revision of 18 00:01:22,749 --> 00:01:19,299 the effect and during this revision we 19 00:01:25,389 --> 00:01:22,759 obtained the signals very well above the 20 00:01:27,879 --> 00:01:25,399 measurement uncertainties and these 21 00:01:30,870 --> 00:01:27,889 measurements are confirming that the 22 00:01:33,730 --> 00:01:30,880 anomalous production of the excess of it 23 00:01:38,559 --> 00:01:33,740 during loading or palladium with the 24 00:01:41,109 --> 00:01:38,569 deuterium is real so such an effect as 25 00:01:46,059 --> 00:01:41,119 the following features is a threshold 26 00:01:48,669 --> 00:01:46,069 effect so there is no way to observe the 27 00:01:51,269 --> 00:01:48,679 onset of the effect if the atomic 28 00:01:55,449 --> 00:01:51,279 fraction of deuterium in palladium is 29 00:01:58,899 --> 00:01:55,459 below point nine is unobserved with 30 00:02:02,199 --> 00:01:58,909 hydrogen is not explainable as a 31 00:02:05,849 --> 00:02:02,209 chemical effect and it takes place only 32 00:02:08,650 --> 00:02:05,859 if materials are showing specific 33 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:08,660 characteristics it seems to be a 34 00:02:17,210 --> 00:02:13,010 resonant effect and it seems that radio 35 00:02:20,210 --> 00:02:17,220 frequency emission is related to the 36 00:02:23,780 --> 00:02:20,220 effect so nevertheless 37 00:02:26,450 --> 00:02:23,790 in general this effect is considered to 38 00:02:31,940 --> 00:02:26,460 be a dangerous mistake by most of the 39 00:02:36,530 --> 00:02:31,950 scientific community so which one is the 40 00:02:40,910 --> 00:02:36,540 research approach we adopted so first of 41 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:40,920 all we have done Ana 14 material science 42 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:43,890 to increase both the reproducibility and 43 00:02:52,610 --> 00:02:50,280 the signals by enhancing the loading the 44 00:02:54,730 --> 00:02:52,620 calorimetric experiment have been 45 00:02:59,360 --> 00:02:54,740 considered that to have an appropriate 46 00:03:04,160 --> 00:02:59,370 signal noise ratio materials have been 47 00:03:06,770 --> 00:03:04,170 designed to control the effect and we 48 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:06,780 like to obtain the definition of the 49 00:03:11,090 --> 00:03:08,330 effect through the materials 50 00:03:14,870 --> 00:03:11,100 characteristics and we want to use a 51 00:03:19,510 --> 00:03:14,880 statistic relevant data to develop a 52 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:19,520 theoretical work concurrently with the 53 00:03:29,449 --> 00:03:26,280 experimental evidence so let's start 54 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:29,459 with the reproducibility of loading mic 55 00:03:37,220 --> 00:03:34,530 Macabre several years ago demonstrated 56 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:37,230 as you can see in in the first picture 57 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:41,810 on the left side that the access is a 58 00:03:50,270 --> 00:03:45,930 parasol defect so in the abscissa you 59 00:03:55,009 --> 00:03:50,280 have the the the loading ratio of 60 00:03:58,070 --> 00:03:55,019 deuterium in Palio and the excess of 61 00:04:01,160 --> 00:03:58,080 power is plotted versus the loading 62 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:01,170 ratio you can see that up to 0.9 about 63 00:04:07,699 --> 00:04:04,470 we don't have any access and then the 64 00:04:10,550 --> 00:04:07,709 excess increases and the larger the 65 00:04:14,449 --> 00:04:10,560 loading the largest v8 we access the 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:14,459 loading is typically measured on the 67 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:18,570 basis of the measurement of the electric 68 00:04:24,980 --> 00:04:21,570 electric resistivity of the Palladium 69 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:24,990 Delta ride or I Drive in the plot on the 70 00:04:33,310 --> 00:04:29,930 right side you can see the evolution 71 00:04:37,930 --> 00:04:33,320 the resistance normalizes the resistance 72 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:37,940 as function of the loading so it's very 73 00:04:42,999 --> 00:04:40,610 easy to realize on the basis of the 74 00:04:48,900 --> 00:04:43,009 measurement where we are this is our 75 00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:48,910 compass the loading of palladium is 76 00:04:56,110 --> 00:04:51,680 going until we achieve the equilibrium 77 00:04:58,420 --> 00:04:56,120 and equilibrium is achieved when the two 78 00:05:01,029 --> 00:04:58,430 interacting phases of the same chemical 79 00:05:03,189 --> 00:05:01,039 potential chemical potential is as most 80 00:05:05,409 --> 00:05:03,199 of you know much better than me that I'm 81 00:05:09,029 --> 00:05:05,419 a dynamic function telling us how the 82 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:09,039 energy of system increases or decreasing 83 00:05:16,570 --> 00:05:11,930 decreases by adding or removing a 84 00:05:18,610 --> 00:05:16,580 particle so for a metal this for I'd 85 00:05:20,650 --> 00:05:18,620 urgent is solving in a metal the 86 00:05:23,140 --> 00:05:20,660 chemical potential as several 87 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:23,150 contribution the first one is the 88 00:05:29,350 --> 00:05:26,110 standard then we have the configure 89 00:05:31,330 --> 00:05:29,360 configurational contribution the than 90 00:05:34,510 --> 00:05:31,340 the electronic contribution then the 91 00:05:37,719 --> 00:05:34,520 interaction of the protons with with 92 00:05:41,050 --> 00:05:37,729 lattice X is the atomic fraction of the 93 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:41,060 hydrogen in the metal for gas loading 94 00:05:46,629 --> 00:05:44,570 the chemical potential is is a function 95 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:46,639 of the fugacities all let me say the 96 00:05:52,210 --> 00:05:48,970 pressure that we apply to the system 97 00:05:54,430 --> 00:05:52,220 into an electrochemical loading the 98 00:05:57,730 --> 00:05:54,440 electrochemical overpotential 99 00:06:00,580 --> 00:05:57,740 replaces the pressure of hydrogen and 100 00:06:05,290 --> 00:06:00,590 the effective pressure given by the 101 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:05,300 electrochemical approach is described by 102 00:06:12,129 --> 00:06:09,289 the annual a question this is some 103 00:06:14,589 --> 00:06:12,139 somehow an extended version of the 104 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:14,599 Nernst equation if we try to apply the 105 00:06:21,339 --> 00:06:18,050 Nernst equation to this system we arrive 106 00:06:25,540 --> 00:06:21,349 at the paradox so the using the over 107 00:06:30,129 --> 00:06:25,550 voltage we have the the effective 108 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:30,139 pressure will be 10 to the 20 atmosphere 109 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:32,810 this is not true with the one volt of 110 00:06:39,969 --> 00:06:37,039 our voltage the effective pressure is 10 111 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:39,979 to the 6 atmosphere is quite high so 112 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:42,409 that's why it's much better to work with 113 00:06:46,260 --> 00:06:43,210 an electron 114 00:06:49,230 --> 00:06:46,270 system to put hydrogen into palladium 115 00:06:52,950 --> 00:06:49,240 instead of working with I Regina ten to 116 00:06:58,740 --> 00:06:52,960 the six atmospheres it's possible that 117 00:07:01,950 --> 00:06:58,750 is not simple so when we are working 118 00:07:05,490 --> 00:07:01,960 with the hydrogen dissolving into a 119 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:05,500 metal lattice we are not leading with 120 00:07:14,370 --> 00:07:09,910 only with an equilibrium problem but we 121 00:07:18,719 --> 00:07:14,380 are approaching the system where we have 122 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:18,729 a deficit process so we are also in a 123 00:07:26,810 --> 00:07:20,830 not equilibrium position in visible 124 00:07:28,850 --> 00:07:26,820 alumina condition and the diffusion is 125 00:07:33,810 --> 00:07:28,860 [Music] 126 00:07:36,390 --> 00:07:33,820 guided by the the chemical potential 127 00:07:41,070 --> 00:07:36,400 gradient is given by the chemical 128 00:07:44,969 --> 00:07:41,080 potential gradient so the chemical 129 00:07:47,999 --> 00:07:44,979 potential gradient produces the loading 130 00:07:51,529 --> 00:07:48,009 and the loading is characterized by a 131 00:07:54,450 --> 00:07:51,539 concentration gradient I tried to 132 00:08:01,260 --> 00:07:54,460 schematize the system this the the the 133 00:08:03,390 --> 00:08:01,270 picture is our sample and on the 134 00:08:06,149 --> 00:08:03,400 external edge on the left side we have 135 00:08:08,790 --> 00:08:06,159 the maximum concentration value so the 136 00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:08,800 lattice is elongated and the larger the 137 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:11,830 concentration the larger the elongation 138 00:08:17,939 --> 00:08:15,250 of the of the sample so that the region 139 00:08:21,029 --> 00:08:17,949 that are at lower concentration are 140 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:21,039 producing a compression stress on the 141 00:08:26,990 --> 00:08:24,190 regions that are at larger hydrogen 142 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:27,000 concentration so chemical potential is 143 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:30,490 modified because in additional terms 144 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:33,810 turns out that is due to the 145 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:36,370 contribution of the force field so are 146 00:08:43,319 --> 00:08:38,680 the force fields that are able to modify 147 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:43,329 the free energy of the system so such a 148 00:08:51,090 --> 00:08:47,260 turn is given by the product between the 149 00:08:55,290 --> 00:08:51,100 volume molar volume of the solute times 150 00:08:57,190 --> 00:08:55,300 the trace of the stress tensor and in 151 00:09:00,250 --> 00:08:57,200 this condition with some this guy 152 00:09:03,970 --> 00:09:00,260 the algebra we can demonstrate that the 153 00:09:07,030 --> 00:09:03,980 flux equation is not the Fijian one that 154 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:07,040 is described just by the first term in 155 00:09:13,350 --> 00:09:09,410 the brackets but there is an additional 156 00:09:17,860 --> 00:09:13,360 terms that is containing the stress and 157 00:09:21,270 --> 00:09:17,870 we can realize that even if we're the 158 00:09:25,630 --> 00:09:21,280 very strong concentration gradient the 159 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:25,640 the difference in in the bracket can be 160 00:09:30,850 --> 00:09:28,340 zero if we have an appropriate value of 161 00:09:33,370 --> 00:09:30,860 the stress so we can have zero flux 162 00:09:37,450 --> 00:09:33,380 despite we have a strong concentration 163 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:37,460 gradient and this is limiting our our 164 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:42,410 loading if we use in differential mass 165 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:46,370 balance such an expression for the flux 166 00:09:53,170 --> 00:09:50,450 we arrive at the not linear mass 167 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:53,180 transfer equation described by the 168 00:10:00,340 --> 00:09:55,970 relationship at the bottom of the slides 169 00:10:05,770 --> 00:10:00,350 and I published this paper many years 170 00:10:09,460 --> 00:10:05,780 ago beyond physical therapy so we have 171 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:09,470 also to work with mass transfer at the 172 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:12,850 grain grain boundary system and this 173 00:10:18,940 --> 00:10:16,250 process is well described by the two 174 00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:18,950 equation differential equation you can 175 00:10:26,530 --> 00:10:23,620 see on the screen and fortunately this 176 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:26,540 system of differential equation as a 177 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:30,400 closed form solution and we can identify 178 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:36,290 that this solution is strongly affected 179 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:41,990 by the product between the dimension of 180 00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:44,170 the grain boundary and the diffusion 181 00:10:50,860 --> 00:10:48,380 into the into the grain boundary so the 182 00:10:54,370 --> 00:10:50,870 larger dot product the better the 183 00:10:57,730 --> 00:10:54,380 loading so if we apply the model to our 184 00:11:00,670 --> 00:10:57,740 system we can see that if into the 185 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:00,680 material we don't have a significant or 186 00:11:07,650 --> 00:11:04,730 a very large stress field we have a 187 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:07,660 loading that is sorry 188 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:09,970 we are the loading 189 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:16,370 that is nicely described by these 190 00:11:23,019 --> 00:11:20,200 modeling and is reproducing the sample 191 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:23,029 characterized by a good load we are 192 00:11:27,819 --> 00:11:25,370 going to the maximum and then to this 193 00:11:31,780 --> 00:11:27,829 value that means that we are quite close 194 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:31,790 to point 95 in atomic fraction if into 195 00:11:38,019 --> 00:11:34,310 the material we have some stress as in 196 00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:38,029 this case the loading is is really 197 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:40,670 really bad we cannot go much more than 198 00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:43,730 point seven point eight and we are not 199 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:48,980 into the regime for observing the onset 200 00:12:01,569 --> 00:11:54,130 of the effect this is the model and 201 00:12:04,949 --> 00:12:01,579 experiment so on the basis of this study 202 00:12:09,819 --> 00:12:04,959 we have designed the mythology that is 203 00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:09,829 obtained by making cold rolling of the 204 00:12:17,470 --> 00:12:14,240 sample and then an specific annealing in 205 00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:17,480 the plot you can see that there is an 206 00:12:23,740 --> 00:12:20,480 optimum annealing to add a good loading 207 00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:23,750 so we have the loading versus the 208 00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:27,110 annealing temperature so in general we 209 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:31,270 annealed our sample around 850 900 210 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:33,410 centigrade if we have a lower 211 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:36,770 temperature the loading is less if we 212 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:39,350 have a larger temperature the load that 213 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:43,610 the loading is less to because the there 214 00:12:51,550 --> 00:12:46,910 is a relevant effect of the stress 215 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:51,560 gradient inside the metal it depends on 216 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:54,110 the size of the grains basically so 217 00:13:02,680 --> 00:12:57,850 let's talk about calorimeter so in our 218 00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:02,690 system we have a closed cell closet cell 219 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:05,839 ourselves where there is a recombine or 220 00:13:10,540 --> 00:13:08,930 a catalyst that is recombining the gas 221 00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:10,550 that are produced at the by the 222 00:13:17,199 --> 00:13:13,550 electrolysis so I mean deuterium and 223 00:13:21,130 --> 00:13:17,209 oxygen are recombined to the water and 224 00:13:22,930 --> 00:13:21,140 the electronic configuration is realized 225 00:13:26,170 --> 00:13:22,940 with 226 00:13:29,620 --> 00:13:26,180 metric geometry the Palladium cathode is 227 00:13:34,030 --> 00:13:29,630 in the midway between to plan a platinum 228 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:34,040 anodes of course the cell is equipped 229 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:37,850 with a pressure sensor just to know if 230 00:13:42,850 --> 00:13:40,730 the catalyst is working or not and to 231 00:13:45,310 --> 00:13:42,860 know if we have some recombining effect 232 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:45,320 inside that is very important to 233 00:13:54,210 --> 00:13:49,010 understand if the effect is chemistry or 234 00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:54,220 not as I will show you in short all our 235 00:14:02,500 --> 00:13:58,160 system have been properly designed in 236 00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:02,510 order to define the temperature field 237 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:07,940 and in order to identify the answer of 238 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:11,570 the system in terms of temperature 239 00:14:17,230 --> 00:14:15,290 changing also thermal hydraulics effect 240 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:17,240 due to the bubbling into the cell have 241 00:14:24,850 --> 00:14:21,410 been studied in the same way the cut we 242 00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:24,860 have adopted two kind of calorimeters 243 00:14:33,090 --> 00:14:28,160 the first one is mass flow calorimeter 244 00:14:38,410 --> 00:14:33,100 that is based on first principles and is 245 00:14:41,830 --> 00:14:38,420 very precise very accurate very 246 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:41,840 difficult to be operated but we are 247 00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:46,490 making directly measurement of the 248 00:14:56,260 --> 00:14:51,760 output power if the cell is operated in 249 00:15:00,220 --> 00:14:56,270 constant current the input power for a 250 00:15:03,010 --> 00:15:00,230 closed cell is just the scholar product 251 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:03,020 between the voltage and the current and 252 00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:06,530 the output power can be estimated on the 253 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:10,070 basis of the difference of the 254 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:12,470 temperature of the coolant passing 255 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:15,410 through the calorimeter times the mass 256 00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:17,900 flow rate times the specific heat of 257 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:27,000 means of the output power divided by the 258 00:15:32,270 --> 00:15:29,710 efficiency of the calorimeter minus the 259 00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:32,280 input power so very simple 260 00:15:39,270 --> 00:15:35,880 technically the calorimeter is realized 261 00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:39,280 putting the cell inside the vessel 262 00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:41,440 containing a water jacket the water 263 00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:46,000 jacket is cooled by a thermostatic water 264 00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:50,680 coming from a thermostatic bath and the 265 00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:53,860 input temperature and output temperature 266 00:15:59,790 --> 00:15:55,980 of the coolant are measured with two 267 00:16:02,910 --> 00:15:59,800 pt100 thermometers and the mass flow 268 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:02,920 rate is measured then the control led at 269 00:16:07,290 --> 00:16:05,170 about point you cubic centimetre for 270 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:07,300 second with an accuracy plus minus 1 271 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:14,530 percent the other concept is an iso 272 00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:17,740 parabolic calorimeter I mean the output 273 00:16:24,140 --> 00:16:21,640 power is not directly measured we need 274 00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:24,150 the calibration in this case that is not 275 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:26,860 necessarily required for the mass flow 276 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:29,290 calorimeter and the calibration allows 277 00:16:37,050 --> 00:16:33,130 us to estimate the output part correlate 278 00:16:39,710 --> 00:16:37,060 the output power with a measurement of a 279 00:16:43,140 --> 00:16:39,720 variable that in the case of this 280 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:43,150 calorimeter developed by novel research 281 00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:47,380 laboratory the parameter is the voltage 282 00:16:56,820 --> 00:16:52,560 difference between the two pal T cells 283 00:16:58,710 --> 00:16:56,830 one is below the active cell so the cell 284 00:17:02,370 --> 00:16:58,720 while we are doing the experiment the 285 00:17:05,059 --> 00:17:02,380 other one is below a dummy cell that is 286 00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:05,069 just a reference this is a differential 287 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:11,550 calorimeter so let me show you now 288 00:17:19,530 --> 00:17:15,610 electrodes from the same lot operated 289 00:17:23,699 --> 00:17:19,540 with light water and the water you can 290 00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:23,709 see in the in this plot that the input 291 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:27,760 power that is the black cube perfectly 292 00:17:33,450 --> 00:17:30,730 overlaps at steady state the output 293 00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:33,460 power that is the red cube and the 294 00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:36,830 integral of both the cubes are given 295 00:17:42,370 --> 00:17:39,710 above so we are the input energy and the 296 00:17:44,860 --> 00:17:42,380 output energy and at the end we have a 297 00:17:47,259 --> 00:17:44,870 difference that is due to the thermal 298 00:17:51,389 --> 00:17:47,269 losses from the calorimeter in this case 299 00:17:56,590 --> 00:17:51,399 2.5% that we cannot completely eliminate 300 00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:56,600 and this is the brother of the sample we 301 00:18:02,889 --> 00:17:58,720 have experiences with light water 302 00:18:05,889 --> 00:18:02,899 treated into the water and you see in 303 00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:05,899 the plot the different green curve is 304 00:18:11,409 --> 00:18:08,750 the difference between the output and 305 00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:11,419 the input power when the effects of 306 00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:18,470 course so also the also the energy cubes 307 00:18:24,970 --> 00:18:21,620 are behaving in a different manner you 308 00:18:27,970 --> 00:18:24,980 see the output energy overlaps the input 309 00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:27,980 power and at the end despite the losses 310 00:18:36,159 --> 00:18:30,049 we are into the calorimeter we have a 311 00:18:38,919 --> 00:18:36,169 energy gain we have tested the 312 00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:38,929 electrodes in other labs this is an 313 00:18:45,210 --> 00:18:42,080 experiment performed by Michael macabre 314 00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:45,220 a pleasure AI with similar sample and 315 00:18:51,639 --> 00:18:49,190 this is an extraordinary excess obtained 316 00:18:54,820 --> 00:18:51,649 at the into energetics Technology 317 00:18:57,370 --> 00:18:54,830 Laboratory with one sample preparator in 318 00:18:59,889 --> 00:18:57,380 Frascati you see the input power was 319 00:19:07,029 --> 00:18:59,899 about one watt and the output to achieve 320 00:19:11,860 --> 00:19:07,039 up to 32 watts is about 3500 percent 321 00:19:16,899 --> 00:19:11,870 excess so we presented these results to 322 00:19:19,629 --> 00:19:16,909 a conference in qo3 and then at the 323 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:19,639 panel organized by the Department of 324 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:28,190 Energy in almost qo4 and people staying 325 00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:31,570 at this panel at the opportunity to 326 00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:35,510 study our results for some months and 327 00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:39,919 after that they got a sentence that was 328 00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:42,830 positive the nearly unanimous opinion of 329 00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:45,230 the reviewers was that founding agency 330 00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:47,480 should entertain individual well design 331 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:50,680 and the proposal for experiments so 332 00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:54,460 after that stamp SSRI in Stanford novel 333 00:19:59,250 --> 00:19:56,880 research laboratory and my Institute 334 00:20:01,770 --> 00:19:59,260 energetics and later University of 335 00:20:04,260 --> 00:20:01,780 Missouri have been involved into a 336 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:04,270 cooperative revision study for several 337 00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:08,770 years these are some of the results most 338 00:20:16,260 --> 00:20:10,720 most significant results we obtained 339 00:20:19,290 --> 00:20:16,270 during this working time on the left 340 00:20:22,860 --> 00:20:19,300 side you have the comparison between the 341 00:20:25,890 --> 00:20:22,870 output and input power for this L 17 342 00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:25,900 experiment you see the blue line is the 343 00:20:32,970 --> 00:20:29,200 input power the the pink one is the 344 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:32,980 output output power we had a little 345 00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:35,770 excess is not a bias it's a real little 346 00:20:41,010 --> 00:20:38,140 excess but at once 347 00:20:43,740 --> 00:20:41,020 we had a burst and you see the spike of 348 00:20:45,330 --> 00:20:43,750 power that is correlated with the 349 00:20:49,170 --> 00:20:45,340 increasing of the temperature of the 350 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:49,180 electrolyte that you can see on this on 351 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:52,090 this plot here that was measured with a 352 00:20:59,940 --> 00:20:56,290 different instrument after that if you 353 00:21:04,800 --> 00:20:59,950 go down here I mean into the loading 354 00:21:08,610 --> 00:21:04,810 cube you may observe that since we were 355 00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:08,620 on the right side of the are on our zero 356 00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:12,220 plot the reducing of the concentration 357 00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:14,560 means an increasing of the are on our 358 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:17,350 zero value and this is what is occurring 359 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:19,990 here so the cathode is deloading because 360 00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:22,690 of the heating of the cathode and as 361 00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:25,300 soon as the loading which was below the 362 00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:28,000 threshold the excess disappeared here 363 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:34,840 and we had to wait some time to gain 364 00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:37,650 another bus that occurred after 365 00:21:45,150 --> 00:21:41,860 reloading the electrode up to this value 366 00:21:48,990 --> 00:21:45,160 so in this case also the electrolyte 367 00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:49,000 temperature is measured and the bus was 368 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:52,990 long enough to achieve the more or less 369 00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:55,690 the steady-state of the calorimeter so 370 00:22:01,460 --> 00:21:58,510 it's about 500 percent of the excess you 371 00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:01,470 can observe that the 372 00:22:08,169 --> 00:22:04,830 input power was decreasing during the 373 00:22:12,830 --> 00:22:08,179 excess the reason is very simple we have 374 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:12,840 a power supply that is a galvano stud so 375 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:16,490 is designed to maintain the setpoint 376 00:22:24,940 --> 00:22:20,450 current so since the electrolyte is 377 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:24,950 warming up during the excess power the 378 00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:28,770 electrolyte conductivity increases and 379 00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,260 the power supply to maintain the 380 00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:33,840 setpoint current as to reducing the 381 00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:35,760 voltage that means that the input power 382 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:37,760 is reduced but that's why we have this 383 00:22:44,990 --> 00:22:41,490 going down on the input power so in 384 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:45,000 practice we were practically we had five 385 00:22:53,299 --> 00:22:48,090 hundred percent access in this case this 386 00:22:55,789 --> 00:22:53,309 was was more robust it was explosive we 387 00:22:58,450 --> 00:22:55,799 had you know the increasing of the 388 00:23:01,520 --> 00:22:58,460 electrolyte temperature and this is the 389 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:01,530 answer of the mass flow calorimeter and 390 00:23:09,140 --> 00:23:05,190 you see that the the bus stop as soon as 391 00:23:13,310 --> 00:23:09,150 the loading ratio was again below the 392 00:23:16,190 --> 00:23:13,320 threshold value this was not long enough 393 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:16,200 to have the steady state of the 394 00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:20,690 calorimeter and we had to quote the 395 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:25,289 excess of power on the basis of the time 396 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:27,330 constant of the calorimeter first and 397 00:23:36,049 --> 00:23:29,970 then with more complex finite element 398 00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:36,059 calculation it was 7000 percent at the 399 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:39,470 end of the job might Macabre as 400 00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:44,570 organized these synoptic picture that is 401 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,150 must be read in this way and on the 402 00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:50,640 bottom we have the number of the lots of 403 00:23:57,770 --> 00:23:54,240 palladium that we produce it and in the 404 00:23:59,810 --> 00:23:57,780 ordinates you have the percentage of 405 00:24:03,110 --> 00:23:59,820 excess of power you see that for 406 00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:03,120 instance lot 14 gab one access eighty 407 00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:07,200 percent in an air and qxs 80 percent at 408 00:24:15,270 --> 00:24:12,960 s RI lot 17 gap to access not very high 409 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:15,280 but to access at s RI to 410 00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:19,210 18% and 500% a tener the one I shown you 411 00:24:26,550 --> 00:24:23,950 before and so on so when a lot of 412 00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:26,560 material was working in one lab was 413 00:24:31,410 --> 00:24:29,230 working also in the other if the lot was 414 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:31,420 not working in one lab was not working 415 00:24:40,410 --> 00:24:36,370 also into the other and the treatment 416 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:40,420 was always the same but is very 417 00:24:46,410 --> 00:24:44,290 difficult to to find the right condition 418 00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:46,420 of the material so it's not the effect 419 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:48,700 that is irreproducible is the material 420 00:24:55,170 --> 00:24:50,410 that is difficult to be reproduce it 421 00:24:59,850 --> 00:24:55,180 with that specific condition so what we 422 00:25:03,000 --> 00:24:59,860 observe during this job I power gain 423 00:25:05,940 --> 00:25:03,010 during the excess no power gain during 424 00:25:08,430 --> 00:25:05,950 the excess or no excess and the 425 00:25:11,220 --> 00:25:08,440 different behavior was related to some 426 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:11,230 feature of the samples ascribed to the 427 00:25:19,050 --> 00:25:15,090 contaminants that were into the sample 428 00:25:22,410 --> 00:25:19,060 in fact as you can see we have two lot 429 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:22,420 of raw palladium that we purchased from 430 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:29,410 the same producer you see that there are 431 00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:32,130 several difference into the distribution 432 00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:35,430 into the concentration of the 433 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:38,830 contaminants look for instance at 434 00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:42,970 platinum that is not not only is not the 435 00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:44,880 only one that is important but it is 436 00:25:50,910 --> 00:25:48,460 more clear in this in this material we 437 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:50,920 have about 200 partner millions of 438 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:53,650 platinum and in the second lot - we have 439 00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:56,410 about 80 partner millions of plotting 440 00:26:01,770 --> 00:25:58,690 and working with the part per millions 441 00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:01,780 is very very very very difficult so the 442 00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:05,470 first lot have up to 60 percent of 443 00:26:11,820 --> 00:26:08,200 reproducibility or larger and excess of 444 00:26:14,550 --> 00:26:11,830 power above 100 percent the second lot 445 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:14,560 we have a reproducibility that was quite 446 00:26:22,050 --> 00:26:17,050 close to ten percent excess of power 447 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:22,060 that were not about twenty percent but 448 00:26:29,060 --> 00:26:26,410 if the two materials had this 449 00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:29,070 [Music] 450 00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:34,809 you know name was palladium 99.95 451 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:40,750 percent we know that contaminants can 452 00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:42,820 have a critical role contaminants may 453 00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:46,270 act on the grain size that is affecting 454 00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:49,150 the stress and mass transfer as I told 455 00:26:54,510 --> 00:26:52,240 you before is working on crystal 456 00:26:57,570 --> 00:26:54,520 orientation because some impurities are 457 00:27:00,180 --> 00:26:57,580 linking preferentially to one plane 458 00:27:02,159 --> 00:27:00,190 during the growing up of the of the 459 00:27:04,110 --> 00:27:02,169 crystal during the annealing so they 460 00:27:06,450 --> 00:27:04,120 controls the orientation of the grains 461 00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:06,460 and coronation of the grains is 462 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:08,590 controlling the kinetics and double 463 00:27:14,279 --> 00:27:12,250 layer capacitance is also affecting the 464 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:14,289 grain boundary so the mass transfer at 465 00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:15,850 the grain boundary is controlled by 466 00:27:24,029 --> 00:27:20,520 impurities and is also affecting the 467 00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:24,039 effect of the surface treatment I mean 468 00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:26,980 the chemical etching that we are doing 469 00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:31,960 and we will go more in deep later on 470 00:27:37,169 --> 00:27:34,390 this point so the morphology of the 471 00:27:41,399 --> 00:27:37,179 surface is controlled by the impurities 472 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:41,409 so these are the two samples one 473 00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:43,450 produces with the first lot the second 474 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:45,820 one the second lot so you see that the 475 00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:49,210 sides of the grains is different you see 476 00:27:54,210 --> 00:27:52,030 that the orientation of the crystal is 477 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:54,220 different in the first case in the first 478 00:28:00,840 --> 00:27:57,970 case we have 100 mostly oriented grains 479 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:00,850 in the second case when mixing the 50 480 00:28:11,370 --> 00:28:09,130 percent 100 101 103 bution of the grain 481 00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:11,380 size you see that our q completely 482 00:28:17,250 --> 00:28:13,809 different materials from my point of 483 00:28:19,140 --> 00:28:17,260 view of course despite the day yet the 484 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:19,150 same name and they were from the same 485 00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:24,090 producer so this is a strong correlation 486 00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:29,340 and bottom you have the number of lots 487 00:28:38,470 --> 00:28:35,620 red bar means that the lattes produces 488 00:28:41,919 --> 00:28:38,480 an excess of power excess power and 489 00:28:46,539 --> 00:28:41,929 the blue is giving the value of the 490 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:46,549 ratio between the maximum loading we 491 00:28:52,450 --> 00:28:49,490 achieve it and the current density where 492 00:28:55,570 --> 00:28:52,460 to apply to obtain such a maximum load 493 00:28:58,030 --> 00:28:55,580 so as you can see there is the fare sold 494 00:29:03,130 --> 00:28:58,040 below that threshold we don't have any 495 00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:03,140 access width so the larger the the 496 00:29:08,860 --> 00:29:05,809 easier the loading the the larger the 497 00:29:10,659 --> 00:29:08,870 probability to observe the effect this 498 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:10,669 is new to the characteristic of the 499 00:29:14,770 --> 00:29:12,770 material is due to the probability to 500 00:29:17,919 --> 00:29:14,780 the mass transfer at the grain boundary 501 00:29:20,350 --> 00:29:17,929 so again we need to control this 502 00:29:22,659 --> 00:29:20,360 property of the material since it's a 503 00:29:24,909 --> 00:29:22,669 resonant effect if I move from the 504 00:29:27,490 --> 00:29:24,919 resonance condition maybe working a 505 00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:27,500 tiger current to achieving an Uyghur 506 00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:30,559 loading maybe I go outside the windows 507 00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:32,660 of parameters I need to obtain the 508 00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:40,640 excess so the identified condition 509 00:29:45,390 --> 00:29:42,860 appropriate metallurgy to achieve a good 510 00:29:48,730 --> 00:29:45,400 loading and answered the mass transfer 511 00:29:52,270 --> 00:29:48,740 for palladium for palladium be careful 512 00:29:57,190 --> 00:29:52,280 one mostly oriented material and 513 00:30:00,669 --> 00:29:57,200 appropriate surface morphology so we 514 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:00,679 have seen that contaminants can affect 515 00:30:09,060 --> 00:30:03,410 the crystal orientation can affect also 516 00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:09,070 the the the grain size but are also 517 00:30:16,270 --> 00:30:12,830 affecting the status of the surface so 518 00:30:19,390 --> 00:30:16,280 we we have studied the surface in terms 519 00:30:22,390 --> 00:30:19,400 of the marriage figure and we identify 520 00:30:25,539 --> 00:30:22,400 these figures as the power spectral 521 00:30:27,940 --> 00:30:25,549 density function of the surface I mean 522 00:30:34,419 --> 00:30:27,950 the score module of the Fourier 523 00:30:36,940 --> 00:30:34,429 transform of the roughness the simple 524 00:30:42,169 --> 00:30:36,950 example power spectral density is 525 00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:46,340 a periodicity is reproducible in this 526 00:30:51,889 --> 00:30:48,360 case as you can see we have Q 527 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:51,899 periodicity the one the first one is a 528 00:30:57,289 --> 00:30:54,330 frequency periodicity and the second one 529 00:30:59,930 --> 00:30:57,299 is this channel that is a low frequency 530 00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:59,940 periodicity so this material is 531 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:01,919 characterized by a power spectral 532 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:04,850 density with two peaks in case of a sign 533 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:11,450 like surface we have one tick pounding 534 00:31:17,869 --> 00:31:15,330 okay this is the material giving the 535 00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:17,879 large axis of power and you see the 536 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:20,940 power spectral density achieving a value 537 00:31:27,649 --> 00:31:24,090 forget the scale spot four point five 538 00:31:30,739 --> 00:31:27,659 the other material have an excess in the 539 00:31:33,950 --> 00:31:30,749 order of two hundred fifty percent and 540 00:31:37,879 --> 00:31:33,960 the value is one close to one point 541 00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:37,889 eight this other sample has a power 542 00:31:44,989 --> 00:31:40,740 spectral density having a value of point 543 00:31:48,379 --> 00:31:44,999 six similar shape the Thunder dumping 544 00:31:51,049 --> 00:31:48,389 shade but lower signal of the power 545 00:31:54,379 --> 00:31:51,059 spectral density and this sample has 546 00:31:59,090 --> 00:31:54,389 given only 25 percent excess this other 547 00:32:01,340 --> 00:31:59,100 sample that is in the picture below on 548 00:32:03,409 --> 00:32:01,350 the left side as a completely flat power 549 00:32:07,190 --> 00:32:03,419 spectral density and was completely 550 00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:07,200 inactive so now what we have to do we 551 00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:09,480 have to play with the contaminants and 552 00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:12,360 this is a very difficult task as to 553 00:32:16,869 --> 00:32:15,360 repair in the engine of an airplane 554 00:32:21,619 --> 00:32:16,879 during the fly 555 00:32:23,989 --> 00:32:21,629 so let's produce an active material so 556 00:32:28,249 --> 00:32:23,999 what we have done we have selected the 557 00:32:32,409 --> 00:32:28,259 material having a 1 0 0 orientation but 558 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:32,419 not giving an appropriate surface to 559 00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:35,850 obtain the onset of the effect and what 560 00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:38,700 we have done is we dope it the material 561 00:32:44,659 --> 00:32:41,340 with the platinum and there is a 562 00:32:46,999 --> 00:32:44,669 specific reason for doing that if you 563 00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:47,009 make an experiment if you weld the 564 00:32:53,450 --> 00:32:50,159 Platinum to piece to a palladium piece 565 00:32:56,270 --> 00:32:53,460 and put this into the acid you will 566 00:32:58,970 --> 00:32:56,280 observe the hydrogen before 567 00:33:01,760 --> 00:32:58,980 mostly on the platinum because the 568 00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:01,770 potential of hydrogen on platinum is 569 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:05,220 much less than potential on on palladium 570 00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:08,250 so that if we have platinum dispersed 571 00:33:17,270 --> 00:33:12,900 into the metal each point where we have 572 00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:17,280 a platinum impurity becomes like a 573 00:33:24,170 --> 00:33:20,910 cathodic point and the surround is the 574 00:33:27,710 --> 00:33:24,180 anodic protection so palladium is eroded 575 00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:27,720 around the Platinum impurity is a micro 576 00:33:34,910 --> 00:33:30,960 corrosion problem so doping with 577 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:34,920 platinum and making the etching this was 578 00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:37,410 resolved with the same material same 579 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:40,140 treatment and instead of airing this 580 00:33:45,170 --> 00:33:43,530 very flat power spectral density we 581 00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:45,180 obtain at this power spectral density 582 00:33:51,260 --> 00:33:48,510 and this is the result of our 583 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:51,270 calorimetric measurements so we got an 584 00:33:57,650 --> 00:33:53,970 excess of power not tremendous but 585 00:33:59,930 --> 00:33:57,660 control it is about 50% in this case we 586 00:34:02,870 --> 00:33:59,940 repeated the experiment in the same 587 00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:02,880 manner and we reproduced this this 588 00:34:12,950 --> 00:34:06,720 effect so again modify the surface again 589 00:34:17,570 --> 00:34:12,960 excess power on the basis of this data 590 00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:17,580 NRL decided to produce some law with 591 00:34:22,340 --> 00:34:19,679 platinum and this is a palladium rhodium 592 00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,350 alloy ten percent of rhodium ninety 593 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:24,720 percent per little and you can see the 594 00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:28,169 excess of power produced by this sample 595 00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:36,390 during their experiment we identified 596 00:34:42,649 --> 00:34:39,060 palladium rhodium as a possible 597 00:34:45,770 --> 00:34:42,659 candidate for studying this effect and 598 00:34:49,580 --> 00:34:45,780 we produced also palladium rhodium alloy 599 00:34:52,490 --> 00:34:49,590 but at the beginning as you can see this 600 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:52,500 material was interesting but the power 601 00:34:58,880 --> 00:34:55,649 spectral density was not significant 602 00:35:02,950 --> 00:34:58,890 from our point of view but we decided to 603 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:02,960 make the experiment despite this 604 00:35:11,020 --> 00:35:06,820 morphology of the surface was not up 605 00:35:15,580 --> 00:35:11,030 the loading was good the x-ray 606 00:35:18,330 --> 00:35:15,590 defraction x-ray defraction vanilla that 607 00:35:21,130 --> 00:35:18,340 palladium rhodium is captured 608 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:21,140 crystalline structure but anyway the 609 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:27,050 loading was appropriate and we have 610 00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:30,850 removed ok the cathodes from the cell 611 00:35:38,830 --> 00:35:34,790 during the excess and we observed that 612 00:35:41,140 --> 00:35:38,840 the surface was completely changed so 613 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:41,150 giving the proper power spectral density 614 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:45,170 this was spontaneous so the experiment 615 00:35:50,410 --> 00:35:48,050 was carried out in this way look the 616 00:35:53,350 --> 00:35:50,420 excess power was originated 617 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:53,360 spontaneously then we inverted the 618 00:35:59,290 --> 00:35:56,210 current in order to see if was a bias of 619 00:36:01,840 --> 00:35:59,300 the calorimeter we D loaded the cathode 620 00:36:04,420 --> 00:36:01,850 and as soon as we have done this the 621 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:04,430 excess disappeared so it was real the 622 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:06,890 calorimeter was perfectly working we 623 00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:10,370 reloaded and the excess started the game 624 00:36:21,420 --> 00:36:15,070 and after some time we decided to 625 00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:21,430 perform an impedance spectrometry of the 626 00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:26,420 of the electrode so we perform at the 627 00:36:33,610 --> 00:36:30,710 first spectrometry in this in this point 628 00:36:37,060 --> 00:36:33,620 then we have which said of the excess 629 00:36:40,770 --> 00:36:37,070 and we replicated the the impedance 630 00:36:43,330 --> 00:36:40,780 spectra spectroscopy so it's very 631 00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:43,340 important from my point of view to 632 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:45,920 highlight that during the excess we had 633 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:49,010 an electrochemical instability so there 634 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:52,370 was a fluctuation of the current that is 635 00:37:00,700 --> 00:36:56,210 indicative of a specific mechanism at 636 00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:00,710 the interface so let me show you what 637 00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:04,510 happened this is the study of the in 638 00:37:09,850 --> 00:37:08,270 interface electrochemical interface 639 00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:09,860 electrochemical interface is 640 00:37:14,860 --> 00:37:12,500 characterized by an equivalent circuit 641 00:37:16,839 --> 00:37:14,870 and this is the equivalent circuit when 642 00:37:20,499 --> 00:37:16,849 we don't have any excess 643 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:20,509 the pictures during the excess is this 644 00:37:29,289 --> 00:37:25,690 one is a completely different system 645 00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:29,299 with a completely different equivalent 646 00:37:36,190 --> 00:37:34,400 secret showing inside the resonator we 647 00:37:39,789 --> 00:37:36,200 have done several measurement of this 648 00:37:44,140 --> 00:37:39,799 and we have seen that the resonator 649 00:37:49,539 --> 00:37:44,150 survives until we apply a strong 650 00:37:53,289 --> 00:37:49,549 perturbation to the system by putting 651 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:53,299 the current to zero value and after that 652 00:38:03,609 --> 00:37:57,130 the resonator disappeared and the system 653 00:38:05,799 --> 00:38:03,619 was was without any access reapplying 654 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:05,809 the current again in the right in the 655 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:08,210 right way we will start at the excess 656 00:38:14,469 --> 00:38:11,210 the important is that the surface of the 657 00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:14,479 samples have specific fusion so you see 658 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:16,960 the contaminants on the surface this is 659 00:38:28,059 --> 00:38:23,690 aluminum and this is silicon obtained by 660 00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:28,069 headaches analysis we tried to replicate 661 00:38:33,789 --> 00:38:30,710 the experiment with another sample not 662 00:38:36,099 --> 00:38:33,799 adding these contaminants in the surface 663 00:38:38,229 --> 00:38:36,109 and you can see the difference with the 664 00:38:41,529 --> 00:38:38,239 active electrode I have shown you before 665 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:41,539 so it's a different material and we 666 00:38:47,890 --> 00:38:44,410 don't have any excess in this case after 667 00:38:50,799 --> 00:38:47,900 five Lots working to replicate that 668 00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:50,809 material we obtained that last one with 669 00:38:56,410 --> 00:38:53,569 similar characteristic that was 670 00:38:59,259 --> 00:38:56,420 experiences and gaba gain excess of 671 00:39:00,969 --> 00:38:59,269 power so again the problem is the 672 00:39:04,779 --> 00:39:00,979 reproducibility of the material not the 673 00:39:07,690 --> 00:39:04,789 profitability of the effect so in 674 00:39:10,420 --> 00:39:07,700 conclusion we can say that material 675 00:39:12,549 --> 00:39:10,430 feature related with the occurrence of 676 00:39:14,529 --> 00:39:12,559 the effect have been identified so we 677 00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:14,539 have a loading threshold loading 678 00:39:21,630 --> 00:39:17,920 dynamics grain grain boundary sides 679 00:39:24,609 --> 00:39:21,640 surface morphology crystal orientation 680 00:39:30,220 --> 00:39:24,619 we have identified the specific role of 681 00:39:33,220 --> 00:39:30,230 some contaminants and the in situ 682 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:33,230 throw chemical impedance spectroscopy as 683 00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:36,410 shown that there is a specific structure 684 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:39,740 at the interface so we have resonating 685 00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:42,850 the circuits component during the access 686 00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:46,609 so the emerging scenario is revealing us 687 00:39:54,190 --> 00:39:49,520 that there is a specific electrochemical 688 00:39:57,609 --> 00:39:54,200 regime during this effect and we 689 00:40:00,280 --> 00:39:57,619 consider the material status be the key 690 00:40:02,650 --> 00:40:00,290 to observe the effect while material 691 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:02,660 science is the key to understand it 692 00:40:08,020 --> 00:40:05,930 since some material characteristics are 693 00:40:11,590 --> 00:40:08,030 supporting some process rather than 694 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:11,600 others in my opinion I think that by 695 00:40:17,650 --> 00:40:14,210 applying the scientific method the 696 00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:17,660 future work should be oriented toward 697 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:19,760 the definition of the effect rather than 698 00:40:26,740 --> 00:40:23,090 to its demonstration because this work 699 00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:26,750 has been already done for 25 years so 700 00:40:39,809 --> 00:40:29,359 there are many contributors of this work 701 00:40:56,799 --> 00:40:51,400 thank you very much it's wonderful to 702 00:40:58,690 --> 00:40:56,809 see the replicability of this excess 703 00:41:01,059 --> 00:40:58,700 energy which is something I know the the 704 00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:01,069 field has been looking for for many many 705 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:03,710 years and you're you're finally getting 706 00:41:12,609 --> 00:41:08,690 it and it just seems great where do you 707 00:41:15,339 --> 00:41:12,619 think a theory to explain this will come 708 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:15,349 from is this a material science theory 709 00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:19,490 is that a quantum theory is do you have 710 00:41:29,859 --> 00:41:22,000 any foundational theory that you like 711 00:41:33,700 --> 00:41:29,869 well we have some theories as I 712 00:41:37,089 --> 00:41:33,710 mentioned at the beginning we are 713 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:37,099 producing the data that should be the 714 00:41:45,460 --> 00:41:42,710 basis to refine the tails the system is 715 00:41:48,430 --> 00:41:45,470 very complex because you know we have 716 00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:48,440 one region that is one micron thick in 717 00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:51,200 this region where the electrolyte that 718 00:41:56,020 --> 00:41:53,270 is a liquid we are with the bubbles 719 00:41:57,789 --> 00:41:56,030 format by the electrolysis we have the 720 00:41:59,920 --> 00:41:57,799 double layer the electrochemical double 721 00:42:02,140 --> 00:41:59,930 layer that is a statistical system of 722 00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:02,150 charged particles so by definition is a 723 00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:04,160 plasma and then we have the solid state 724 00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:06,710 we have four status of the matter in one 725 00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:10,640 micron so each of them with its physics 726 00:42:19,620 --> 00:42:14,569 all all talking each others and is very 727 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:19,630 complex to define completely at every 728 00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:22,130 certainly on the basis of what we have 729 00:42:30,849 --> 00:42:26,960 seen what I can say is a an electro 730 00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:30,859 dynamic effect a very intense electro 731 00:42:40,839 --> 00:42:35,359 dynamic effect and how this can act on 732 00:42:43,690 --> 00:42:40,849 the nuclei must be better defined so we 733 00:42:46,829 --> 00:42:43,700 have many tables so me several times 734 00:42:50,799 --> 00:42:46,839 that are oriented in this way but I 735 00:42:53,410 --> 00:42:50,809 think we need more data to to do that 736 00:42:57,789 --> 00:42:53,420 talking about reproducibility 737 00:43:01,319 --> 00:42:57,799 to obtain working the lot we are to make 738 00:43:05,499 --> 00:43:01,329 a long job so if we make me be let's say 739 00:43:12,130 --> 00:43:05,509 2025 experiment for year we can expect 740 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:12,140 12 to 3 X s so this is our possibility 741 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:15,890 we are few people and I think this is 742 00:43:23,019 --> 00:43:19,609 the big limit of this discipline we 743 00:43:28,779 --> 00:43:23,029 don't have what we exactly meet in terms 744 00:43:31,660 --> 00:43:28,789 of intelligence in terms of manpower and 745 00:43:34,329 --> 00:43:31,670 also on instruments that believe me have 746 00:43:36,130 --> 00:43:34,339 to be the status of the art instrument I 747 00:43:37,959 --> 00:43:36,140 would like for instance to make the 748 00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:37,969 measurement inside the grain boundary to 749 00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:40,400 know exactly what we have there but for 750 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:42,380 doing that we need in high resolution 751 00:43:51,069 --> 00:43:46,130 logic for 40 nanometers resolution and 752 00:43:55,150 --> 00:43:51,079 this is not simple to air so for us so 753 00:43:57,249 --> 00:43:55,160 and so on okay all right thank you so 754 00:44:00,189 --> 00:43:57,259 much for this wonderful talk I think you 755 00:44:02,739 --> 00:44:00,199 guys did excellent science but what 756 00:44:07,749 --> 00:44:02,749 struck me is having followed cold fusion 757 00:44:11,439 --> 00:44:07,759 or lower near low nuclear reactions as 758 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:11,449 it's called now 25 years ago I am 759 00:44:17,949 --> 00:44:15,410 surprised that you have not gotten more 760 00:44:19,150 --> 00:44:17,959 funding or support and I'm surprised 761 00:44:22,029 --> 00:44:19,160 that this is not done at every 762 00:44:24,549 --> 00:44:22,039 University I mean your your presentation 763 00:44:26,769 --> 00:44:24,559 shows there is no question anymore 764 00:44:29,469 --> 00:44:26,779 whether there is an effect or not so 765 00:44:33,789 --> 00:44:29,479 obviously we need to throw all we have 766 00:44:39,219 --> 00:44:33,799 at this effect how so my question is 767 00:44:44,229 --> 00:44:39,229 this why has it taken 25 years and what 768 00:44:47,709 --> 00:44:44,239 is the future of this well thanks for 769 00:44:55,660 --> 00:44:47,719 meeting this question I think that we 770 00:45:04,600 --> 00:44:55,670 can answer both me and Mike I do believe 771 00:45:08,260 --> 00:45:04,610 that this discipline had a bad starting 772 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:08,270 so the scientific community had not the 773 00:45:17,350 --> 00:45:13,010 right position to approach this study 774 00:45:22,930 --> 00:45:17,360 and this had an effect for the following 775 00:45:26,530 --> 00:45:22,940 so papers are typically not accepted in 776 00:45:31,290 --> 00:45:26,540 the magazine we don't have any chance to 777 00:45:35,980 --> 00:45:31,300 offer job opportunity to young people so 778 00:45:39,490 --> 00:45:35,990 this is an I risk job for people that 779 00:45:44,830 --> 00:45:39,500 are starting young so and I think this 780 00:45:48,610 --> 00:45:44,840 is the worst situation that we may have 781 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:48,620 in approaching the discipline because 782 00:45:57,730 --> 00:45:51,770 the Youngs can guarantee the future we 783 00:46:00,970 --> 00:45:57,740 don't have this guarantee at all so what 784 00:46:03,220 --> 00:46:00,980 we can do i I don't know I think we are 785 00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:03,230 demonstrated that the effect is real as 786 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:06,470 a very strong correlation is not a 787 00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:09,170 chemical effect in the last x-axis I 788 00:46:15,550 --> 00:46:12,560 shown you we had an energy gain that was 789 00:46:17,620 --> 00:46:15,560 50 times larger than the largest 790 00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:17,630 chemical effect that we can have in that 791 00:46:27,070 --> 00:46:21,950 cell so that we have much more than that 792 00:46:29,770 --> 00:46:27,080 I had no time to show you but so for our 793 00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:29,780 level of knowledge we can consider that 794 00:46:36,430 --> 00:46:34,430 this is a nuclear effect we have some 795 00:46:40,780 --> 00:46:36,440 data that are indicative in that 796 00:46:45,100 --> 00:46:40,790 direction but for making a sentence in 797 00:46:50,170 --> 00:46:45,110 this way we should replicate a joint 798 00:46:51,790 --> 00:46:50,180 research program organized as the one we 799 00:46:55,330 --> 00:46:51,800 have done for demonstrating that the 800 00:46:58,240 --> 00:46:55,340 access to it is real in terms of search 801 00:47:01,270 --> 00:46:58,250 for new garages this is important so 802 00:47:03,180 --> 00:47:01,280 with well organized research 803 00:47:06,970 --> 00:47:03,190 institutions working together 804 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:06,980 overlapping their results making mutual 805 00:47:13,150 --> 00:47:09,650 check on results I don't think there is 806 00:47:17,799 --> 00:47:13,160 any other way to approach the matter 807 00:47:22,630 --> 00:47:17,809 with the scientific method but we need 808 00:47:25,779 --> 00:47:22,640 a minimal support for going on thank you 809 00:47:27,759 --> 00:47:25,789 just a question I noticed you said when 810 00:47:30,269 --> 00:47:27,769 you pulled the cathode out there was 811 00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:30,279 some damage to it or it had been 812 00:47:34,929 --> 00:47:33,049 impacted or affected and I know that 813 00:47:37,359 --> 00:47:34,939 fusion in the past has always been 814 00:47:39,429 --> 00:47:37,369 issues regarding the containment vessels 815 00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:39,439 or whatever being affected by the 816 00:47:45,609 --> 00:47:41,660 process itself and does this become a 817 00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:45,619 real future problem in that you're 818 00:47:56,410 --> 00:47:48,049 constantly having to deal with that sort 819 00:47:57,699 --> 00:47:56,420 of effect okay I shown you that during 820 00:48:00,400 --> 00:47:57,709 that experiment 821 00:48:02,229 --> 00:48:00,410 I removed the electrode from the cell 822 00:48:04,660 --> 00:48:02,239 without uh switching off the power 823 00:48:07,449 --> 00:48:04,670 supply so to maintain the surface of the 824 00:48:10,749 --> 00:48:07,459 electrode as was during the excess from 825 00:48:14,709 --> 00:48:10,759 that experiment we have collected a lot 826 00:48:17,529 --> 00:48:14,719 of information status of the surface 827 00:48:20,380 --> 00:48:17,539 status of the interface in terms of 828 00:48:24,009 --> 00:48:20,390 equivalent electric secret we have 829 00:48:26,679 --> 00:48:24,019 observed the growing of these nano 830 00:48:28,660 --> 00:48:26,689 fractures on the surface force and nano 831 00:48:33,699 --> 00:48:28,670 structures on the surface that are 832 00:48:37,449 --> 00:48:33,709 giving us information on the possible 833 00:48:42,039 --> 00:48:37,459 mechanism that we can add there so this 834 00:48:44,859 --> 00:48:42,049 was done and of course sometime we are 835 00:48:48,009 --> 00:48:44,869 able to control it I mean to produce a 836 00:48:50,979 --> 00:48:48,019 material that as these fissures as soon 837 00:48:54,249 --> 00:48:50,989 as is installed into the electrochemical 838 00:48:58,029 --> 00:48:54,259 cell sometime we have to wait that this 839 00:48:59,609 --> 00:48:58,039 condition is created because into the 840 00:49:03,160 --> 00:48:59,619 system there are the right ingredients 841 00:49:06,759 --> 00:49:03,170 but to have a control at level of part 842 00:49:10,569 --> 00:49:06,769 of a million's we we need a much better 843 00:49:13,029 --> 00:49:10,579 approach so the best way to go on if we 844 00:49:15,249 --> 00:49:13,039 decide to continue this research instead 845 00:49:17,469 --> 00:49:15,259 of stopping it because I I see that 846 00:49:19,660 --> 00:49:17,479 there is nonzero probability to stop 847 00:49:22,059 --> 00:49:19,670 such a research is to a very well 848 00:49:25,959 --> 00:49:22,069 conceived at the research international 849 00:49:29,660 --> 00:49:25,969 research project shared between several 850 00:49:32,359 --> 00:49:29,670 counties and with the very precise 851 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:32,369 that that can be material science no 852 00:49:40,910 --> 00:49:37,650 garages Vittorio thank you I got the 853 00:49:43,819 --> 00:49:40,920 impression that resonant frequency of 854 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:43,829 the electrolyte current was a critical 855 00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:46,650 factor in your success and you may have 856 00:49:53,450 --> 00:49:50,430 shown data on those frequencies that I 857 00:49:56,260 --> 00:49:53,460 missed is my understanding correct and 858 00:50:00,819 --> 00:49:56,270 can you review that for us again I 859 00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:00,829 mentioned at the beginning about 860 00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:04,079 electromagnetic signals so we have 861 00:50:09,650 --> 00:50:06,569 preliminary measurement of radio 862 00:50:13,059 --> 00:50:09,660 frequency emission from that system 863 00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:13,069 certainly we have the frequency 864 00:50:20,530 --> 00:50:16,940 identified by the electro chemical 865 00:50:24,859 --> 00:50:20,540 instrumentation but we have also either 866 00:50:27,140 --> 00:50:24,869 frequencies and to extract signal at a 867 00:50:31,370 --> 00:50:27,150 frequency from an electrochemical cell 868 00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:31,380 is not a simple task again we we need 869 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:35,599 the support for doing that we are in 870 00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:39,410 cooperation with National Instruments to 871 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:44,160 try to understand which one are the the 872 00:50:52,099 --> 00:50:47,970 most appropriate measurement instruments 873 00:50:55,180 --> 00:50:52,109 to be applied for and if in case is 874 00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:55,190 possible to design specific 875 00:51:00,680 --> 00:50:57,930 instrumentation for for doing that but 876 00:51:05,150 --> 00:51:00,690 as I told you this can be done within a 877 00:51:08,650 --> 00:51:05,160 general research project that at the 878 00:51:14,510 --> 00:51:11,270 thank you do you have any view on 879 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:14,520 Rossi's ecad energy catalyzer 880 00:51:23,059 --> 00:51:19,530 learner device well honestly I don't 881 00:51:27,170 --> 00:51:23,069 know too much with the exception of what 882 00:51:31,819 --> 00:51:27,180 is available on on the web or into the 883 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:31,829 literature my Institute is one of the 884 00:51:39,140 --> 00:51:34,890 largest hot fusion Institute in Europe 885 00:51:44,090 --> 00:51:39,150 is Frascati Research Center and I am 886 00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:49,859 so our task is to try to identify the 887 00:51:57,510 --> 00:51:53,350 mechanism Rossi is working for producing 888 00:52:06,060 --> 00:51:57,520 a commercial device so I don't have any 889 00:52:07,470 --> 00:52:06,070 elements from them to um we presented 890 00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:07,480 I'm not sure if you were here yesterday 891 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:10,480 morning about water and about a special 892 00:52:15,870 --> 00:52:13,210 zone interesting professor thank you 893 00:52:17,790 --> 00:52:15,880 okay so maybe it's interesting for you 894 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:17,800 because we studied what happens next to 895 00:52:23,310 --> 00:52:19,930 platinum and gold and a little bit 896 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:23,320 palladium to our surprise we found these 897 00:52:29,820 --> 00:52:27,210 zones existing next to those metals and 898 00:52:31,950 --> 00:52:29,830 there is apparently a separation of 899 00:52:33,570 --> 00:52:31,960 charge between the exclusion zone and 900 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:33,580 the exclusions don't right next to it 901 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:36,970 and therefore I wonder if first of all 902 00:52:43,050 --> 00:52:39,490 whether that might be relevant to some 903 00:52:47,910 --> 00:52:43,060 of the findings that that you mentioned 904 00:52:50,940 --> 00:52:47,920 and the second maybe I don't know but in 905 00:52:53,460 --> 00:52:50,950 in the case of these exclusion zones we 906 00:52:55,590 --> 00:52:53,470 show that the energy for creating them 907 00:52:58,020 --> 00:52:55,600 comes from the environment so I'm 908 00:53:00,540 --> 00:52:58,030 wondering if there are some relevance of 909 00:53:03,570 --> 00:53:00,550 our stuff to your stuff is it possible 910 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:03,580 that the excess energy is really energy 911 00:53:16,020 --> 00:53:06,210 that coming from the environment 912 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:16,030 let me ask as I mentioned at the 913 00:53:22,740 --> 00:53:19,930 beginning in this experiment if we 914 00:53:26,010 --> 00:53:22,750 consider the electrode the bull 915 00:53:31,710 --> 00:53:26,020 electrode without any distinction 916 00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:31,720 between palladium and deuterium the the 917 00:53:37,530 --> 00:53:34,960 energy of the chemical bond should have 918 00:53:41,010 --> 00:53:37,540 been in the order of 10,000 electron 919 00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:41,020 volts for giving an excess like this we 920 00:53:45,270 --> 00:53:43,090 can also imagine that for some reason we 921 00:53:48,450 --> 00:53:45,280 are accumulating energy into the 922 00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:48,460 cathodes at very low power let's say 1 923 00:53:54,770 --> 00:53:51,280 milli watt that our calorimeter is 924 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:54,780 unable to reach for amount 925 00:54:00,020 --> 00:53:56,850 and then for some reason for instance as 926 00:54:02,990 --> 00:54:00,030 is happening into the graphite nuclear 927 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:03,000 power station we could have some 928 00:54:09,260 --> 00:54:05,010 mechanism like the vignette effect and 929 00:54:12,140 --> 00:54:09,270 these heat energy is released at once so 930 00:54:14,570 --> 00:54:12,150 in that case we have a releasing of a 931 00:54:17,390 --> 00:54:14,580 significant amount of energy in a very 932 00:54:20,060 --> 00:54:17,400 short time and this will give a big 933 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:20,070 power that we can see with the 934 00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:22,890 calorimeter but also in this case the 935 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:26,640 integral must be you know consistent 936 00:54:31,970 --> 00:54:29,130 with the energy of the chemical bond you 937 00:54:34,850 --> 00:54:31,980 could observe that this could be energy 938 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:34,860 accumulated into the liquid I agree with 939 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:37,530 you but assuming that we have a so 940 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:39,930 strong guy so topic effect that these 941 00:54:46,670 --> 00:54:42,450 energies accumulated into the Edie water 942 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:46,680 we cannot explain why with a small 943 00:54:52,580 --> 00:54:49,410 amount of EB water we can have access 944 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:52,590 much larger than with the large amount 945 00:54:58,910 --> 00:54:55,170 of EB water so this is in conflict with 946 00:55:01,580 --> 00:54:58,920 the evidence and another point that I 947 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:01,590 have to answer is we don't have any 948 00:55:05,650 --> 00:55:03,930 reaction any chemical reaction in the 949 00:55:07,490 --> 00:55:05,660 cell we don't have product the cell 950 00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:07,500 fortunately for us because it's 951 00:55:13,310 --> 00:55:11,520 expensive is use at four years so the 952 00:55:16,070 --> 00:55:13,320 materials are conserved 953 00:55:18,770 --> 00:55:16,080 so this is what I can tell you just on 954 00:55:21,490 --> 00:55:18,780 the basis of the observations Thank You 955 00:55:24,780 --> 00:55:21,500 professor Pollak 956 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:24,790 fascinating thank you doctor 957 00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:27,610 [Applause] 958 00:55:30,220 --> 00:55:29,250 [Music]